Should G-ds people eat what he calls unclean or abomination?

Psalms_119:105

Here's some questions to get us going

Do you believe you can eat all things?
Did Jesus really declare all things clean to eat?
Why were the foods mentioned in Leviticus designated as clean or unclean?
What made them be put in the catagories they were?
Why do so Many Christians eat pork or have Ham dinners in the church?

How does this effect sharing Jesus/Yeshua with the Jews

Do you purposly eat pork to disassociate yourself from Jews?
How do you interpret Acts 15:20-21?

tturt · Member Posts: 103 Join date: 2007-09-08

Well, this is something I'm still trying to work through. Never heard anyone say or imply that they ate pork just to disassociate from the Jewish community. Basically, some farmers eat what they raise.

As to the question why some foods were mentioned as clean or unclean - they were set that way in Leviticus b/c Yahweh said they were.

peace · Newbie Posts: 6 Join date: 2008-01-01

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Do you believe you can eat all things?

Anyone can eat whatever they want, that doesn’t mean it’s food.

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Did Jesus really declare all things clean to eat?

Did Yeshua change His creation? What I think is that many just don't under stand what "clean" and "unclean" mean and in relation to what. Sometimes it does mean undefiled and defiled, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it refers to creature/human "relationships" (using that very loosely) and sometimes to human/YHVH relationship (not loosely). Most times, the context reveals the meaning.

Matthew 15

1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

I appologize for this, as I can't seem to get it the same as the rest of the post. The more I try, the worst it gets.

This is what the context is about. The tradition was created for the priests to perform a washing ritual (which was 5 pages of written direction) during ceremonies. The Pharisees expanded it for all people all the time and was quite frankly a burden. Would you want to spend 8 minutes washing your hands just to eat an orange or a meal? That’s what was expected of everyone. And as what often happens, the tradition became more important than what Torah taught.

3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[b] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8" 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"

10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"
13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

(When a tradition of man becomes more important than HaShem's Word, one does become blind. Please know, I don't say this in judgement of anyone, for this very thing has happened in one way or another to everyone at one time or another in each persons' life)

15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."

6"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? (Speaking of our digestive system)18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'

19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

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Why were the foods mentioned in Leviticus designated as clean or unclean?

That’s how HaShem created them. Remember, Noah knew what was clean and unclean.

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What made them be put in the catagories they were?

Take a look at what these creatures do. They are the filters for the earth, land and waters. Pigs eat garbage that within their system is so much poison they have hundreds of pores around their feet to expel the poison. Human bodies don’t have the capacity to metabolize and excrete that poison and it builds up in the lymph system and liver. And while pigs are food (clean) for other creatures, they aren’t for humans.

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Why do so Many Christians eat pork or have Ham dinners in the church?

Because they don’t know better.

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How does this effect sharing Jesus/Yeshua with the Jews

It’s one of the reasons Jews deny Yeshua.

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Do you purposly eat pork to disassociate yourself from Jews?

I follow a Biblically Kosher diet.

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How do you interpret Acts 15:20-21?

20 but that we write to them that they abstain from (A)things contaminated by idols and from (B)fornication and from (C)what is strangled and from blood.
21" For (D)Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
That these 3 instructions are a good bouncing board both physically and spiritually as they (the unknowledgeable gentile) will learn more and grow as they continue to be taught the Torah every Shabbat.

Blessings,
Peace

Arlev · Member Posts: 55 Join date: 2007-12-21

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peace · Newbie Posts: 6 Join date: 2008-01-01

Arlev wrote:

There is a clear command from YHWH to Noah (a Gentile) about the eating of flesh in Gen 9:3-7.

Please excuse me quoting it in its entirety here rather than ask you to look it up (my italics):

'Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning; of every beast I will require it and of man; of every man’s brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. And you, be fruitful and multiply, bring forth abundantly on the earth and multiply in it'

The prohibition is clearly against eating flesh with its life and doesn't mention anything about clean or unclean animals. As Peace noted, however, Noah seems to have been aware what a clean and an unclean animal was (although, in the English it doesn't infer directly that he deliberately took the clean but that what he took was clean).

That Noah could have been commanded not to eat unclean food is, therefore, significant (if we follow Peace's interpretation as above) - because he wasn't commanded to do anything different with either type of meat.

However, the early Church (the Jews), reiterated the command to the Gentiles through Noah in Acts 15:20 that they should refrain from blood and, therefore, upheld God's command given to the Gentiles concerning meat eating.

They didn't expand it to include the clean and unclean as the Law did.

There is no obligation, then, for a Gentile to make any distinction between the clean and unclean when it comes to eating meat but they should still be careful to refrain from eating anything that still has the life (that is, the blood) in it.

And then there's all those Scriptures about stumbling a brother which I'm not going into here Very Happy

.

Please look at what I stated

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That’s how HaShem created them. Remember, Noah knew what was clean and unclean.

I never said at that point and time that which was unclean was not to be considered food, I said that's how HaShem created them and that Noah knew what was clean and unclean. That hasn't changed for that which is intrinsically (created) unclean (akathartos) still is.

Scripture says there is an obligation for all believers to know what is clean and unclean.
"For I am ADONAI your God; therefore, consecrate yourselves and
be holy, for I am holy; and do not defile yourselves with any kind of
swarming creature that moves along the ground. For I am ADONAI,
who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God.
Therefore you are to be holy, because I am holy." (11:44-45)

"Such then, is the law concerning animals, flying creatures, all living
creatures that move about in the water, and all creatures that swarm
on the ground. Its purpose is to distinguish between the unclean
and the clean, and between the creatures that may be eaten and
those that may not be eaten." (11:46-47)

Here are a few questions for you. Did HaShem simply change His mind? If so, He who changes not just changed. Did He change creation? And thirdy, has Yeshua yet reigned on earth?

Blessings,
Peace

PS, do you honestly believe canabalism was ok?

Arlev · Member Posts: 55 Join date: 2007-12-21

This post has been removed

Psalms_119:105

Shalom and welcome peace! Smile

I fixed your post for you. Smile

Arlev · Member Posts: 55 Join date: 2007-12-21

This post has been removed

peace · Newbie Posts: 6 Join date: 2008-01-01

Thank you, Psalms! I did try but to no avail.

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There is a clear command from YHWH to Noah (a Gentile) about the eating of flesh in Gen 9:3-7.

This is what I was referring to. When one takes a portion from the whole, people have a way of adding what isn't there. Do you deny that Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean?

I know many are taught that this one portion is YHVH giving permission to eat all meat, clean or unclean.

“And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.’”

I also realize that it is taught that is was two of every species that Noah was told on the ark based on this verse.

“And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of the birds after their kind, and of the animals after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive” (Genesis 6:19-20).

It does seem to me, if only two of each kind of animal were brought onto the ark, and when the ark rested on Mount Ararat and the animals were let go, if Noah and his family immediately started eating meat, then as a result they would be responsible for the extinction of certain animal species.

Genesis 7:2 “You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female.” (7 pairs of each clean, 1 pair of each unclean)

This does indicate that long before the Torah was formally given to Israel, there was an understanding of clean and unclean meats. Into this ark Noah was to take all kinds of animals to preserve life on earth. A distinction was made very early between clean and unclean animals. To preserve life Noah had to take on board two of every kind of animal, but for food and for sacrificing he had to bring seven pairs of each kind of clean animal.

Now, let's look at one specific portion, "I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.”

In the Garden of Eden and until right after the Flood, humans were only permitted to eat plants such as fruits, vegetables, herbs, and nuts. The Scriptures do not tell us which plants are acceptable or unacceptable, but obviously if something is poisonous we should not eat it. Following the Flood the YHVH gave permission for man to eat meat, and it is important that we realize that at this time there was already an understanding of what was created clean and unclean.

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As I said, God's command to the Gentiles was upheld by the early Church who were predominantly Jews. Their decision was that the Gentile believer in Christ was not bound to keep the Mosaic Law as a legalistic observance as the stricter Jewish believers were insisting.

Where do you think those restriction came from? Lev. 17:13, 14 7:26, 27; Deut. 12:6, 23 are just a few. Yes, the Halacha of the times were quite legalistic, so much so they made living a burden. But the Torah isn't, it's Abba's loving instruction for His children. What a loving Abba we have that lets us know what is good for us even down to what we should eat. After all, we are what we eat.

Also, you might want to consider the context of Acts 15:19-21. The question at has was was it mandatory that they be circumcised and participate in a full-fledged “conversion” to Judaism to be saved? This was one of many teachings (not of Torah) that was prevalent. (works vs faith).

Blessings,Peace

peace · Newbie Posts: 6 Join date: 2008-01-01

“A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine’s flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; which say, stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day” (Isaiah 65:3-5, KJV).

For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. (Isaiah 66:16-18

It is a fact that God does say that in the Last Days He will judge those who defiantly eat pork and other unclean things.

Psalms_119:105

What many people don't understand is that G-d had these laws when he made the creation. Noah was not to be the leader of the people he would choose to codify these laws with. That does not mean they did not exist. But you must set them out formally, with penalties for breaking them. As you see murder was not OK ever, yet Cain killed his brother but the penalty was not yet given, so his life was not required to pay the cost of breaking this law, not yet given. However he was shown by having little regard for his own brother he separated himself from G-d and that is what he claimed to be a punishment too hard to bear. It would be easy to just loose your life in payment, but another to loose your relationship with G-d. This is a picture of us and eternity.

Psalms_119:105

peace wrote:

For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. (Isaiah 66:16-18

It is a fact that God does say that in the Last Days He will judge those who defiantly eat pork and other unclean things.

Yes,. and this is what most gentile believers miss and misunderstand. They think because it wasn't taught before in the church, it must not be for them now. But we have a merciful G-d who saw and knew that things would be hard to understand in the past 2000 years. First with the persecutions of the newly formed 'church' or called out ones.That because gentiles were also part of this, that there would be a fight on from the adversary ( HaSatan). He would try and put his hatred for the people who brought forth the one (who would crush his head), upon the new gentile believers. This in turn caused them to believe that all Jews crucified their Lord and that they were all to blame and they, in their narrow minds also equated things that G-d himself invented and patterned his whole salvation plan on, where not for them but only the Jews ( ie, the feasts and holy days of G-d, given to Israel).

This in turn lead to many years of gentiles living a shism from the foundation of their faith. Blinding them to most not even knowing what G-ds word truly said. This is still happeing today in many churches, but there are a few who know the truth and aren't afraid to stand up and preach it. Also as Daniel prophecied, there is much increased knowledge now.

Remember there was a time when only the catholic priests were allowed to have bibles and read G-ds word, the people had no choice but to believe what they were told. Then there was the reformation and many died, many men also died from translating the bible out of the Roman latin version to their own language so the common man would have access. But today it is available even to the poorest of the poor.

So now we have passed over from justifiyable ignorance to having the knowledge that if ignored we will be held accountable for. In Hebrews 10:26 it tells us that 'If we sin willfully after the time we have recieved the truth, there remains No sacrifice for our sins'.

That is pretty heavy, yet most take it with a grain of salt.

Arlev · Member Posts: 55 Join date: 2007-12-21

This post has been removed

peace · Newbie Posts: 6 Join date: 2008-01-01

Arlev wrote:

I will only answer briefly here, Peace, because there doesn't appear to be much that we disagree on.

You're right - we're both right - that a distinction was present with Noah (although I qualified it). But there doesn't appear to me to be a necessary definition that they were clean and unclean with regard to consumption.

In the famous passage about women in I Tim, women will be saved by childbearing - the problems that that has caused! But it's because many take 'saved' as being 'saved in Christ' which isn't correct.

Again, the 'baptism' of Mtw 28 is taken to mean 'water baptism' but, again, the Greek word isn't a technical word for a religious rite, it means simply 'immerse' without specifying a medium.

So, 'clean' and 'unclean' in this context does not have to be defined by our added 'diet' but could equally well be defined by the word 'sacrifice' - and that's exactly how the words seem to be employed (Gen 8:20). I cannot see a place in the text that says 'clean' and 'unclean' has to do with food. If you find one, let me know.

The second quote you used from me was saying this - that the early Church's command mirrored the covenant made with the Gentiles in Noah. You look at it as coming from the Law, I don't. They could have said that the Mosaic Law was obsolete but they actually upheld something specific from the earliest times, when man was first given the right to eat flesh.

In essence, I believe they used the provision of food to the Gentiles given to Noah and laid the Mosaic Law to one side.

As to your second post (and I'm doing this hastily before I have to go and have a bath and get to bed), the second Scripture appears to me to be directed towards the Jews while the first is a comment on God's willingness to accept the Gentiles into covenant in Jesus Christ.

However, that first Scripture doesn't condemn the Gentiles for doing what they do but is, rather, a word of warning that even such abominable people as the Gentiles who didn't have the revelation of God and His abiding presence, would be acceptable to Him. It was a word that was to be an affront to those who prided themselves on being the offspring of Abraham.

I must dash - sorry I can't deal with the subject in a fuller way.

You do realize the gentiles are pagans and as one who is set apart are not to live as the pagans do?

Also, did Yeshua change what He created intrinsically clean and unclean? Please forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought the discussion we were having was about clean and unclean as YHVH created and as it relates to food. Maybe a more indepth word study on clean, unclean in context is in order.

I am sorry, your post is a bit confusing as it jumps from one topic to another. Maybe when you are refeshed you could "edit" it.

Blessings,
Peace

peace · Newbie Posts: 6 Join date: 2008-01-01

Psalms_119:105 wrote:

peace wrote:

For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. (Isaiah 66:16-18

It is a fact that God does say that in the Last Days He will judge those who defiantly eat pork and other unclean things.

Yes,. and this is what most gentile believers miss and misunderstand. They think because it wasn't taught before in the church, it must not be for them now. But we have a merciful G-d who saw and knew that things would be hard to understand in the past 2000 years. First with the persecutions of the newly formed 'church' or called out ones.That because gentiles were also part of this, that there would be a fight on from the adversary ( HaSatan). He would try and put his hatred for the people who brought forth the one (who would crush his head), upon the new gentile believers. This in turn caused them to believe that all Jews crucified their Lord and that they were all to blame and they, in their narrow minds also equated things that G-d himself invented and patterned his whole salvation plan on, where not for them but only the Jews ( ie, the feasts and holy days of G-d, given to Israel).

This in turn lead to many years of gentiles living a shism from the foundation of their faith. Blinding them to most not even knowing what G-ds word truly said. This is still happeing today in many churches, but there are a few who know the truth and aren't afraid to stand up and preach it. Also as Daniel prophecied, there is much increased knowledge now.

Remember there was a time when only the catholic priests were allowed to have bibles and read G-ds word, the people had no choice but to believe what they were told. Then there was the reformation and many died, many men also died from translating the bible out of the Roman latin version to their own language so the common man would have access. But today it is available even to the poorest of the poor.

So now we have passed over from justifiyable ignorance to having the knowledge that if ignored we will be held accountable for. In Hebrews 10:26 it tells us that 'If we sin willfully after the time we have recieved the truth, there remains No sacrifice for our sins'.

That is pretty heavy, yet most take it with a grain of salt.

How true and how sad. And just to add to what you have said, it didn't help that the Roman Emperors (who were the Supreme Pontiff's) forbade anyone from doing anything "Jewish" even to the point of death. Each one had his own pet peeve(s) but the message was clear: the Jews were subhuman and not to be trusted. Out goes Passover and is replaced by Easter. Out goes the Feast of Tabernacles and in comes Christmas. Of course there is much more to all of this but I need to go now.

Blessings,
Peace

cyberlizard

yes it is nice to know that church is waking up and finally smelling the coffee so to speak.