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tturt
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PostSubject: unintentional and intentional sins   Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:09 am

I've been reading some materials from a Torah class and the author said that the sacrifices were for unintentional sins. I was really puzzled by that but I have found a scripture that supports his materials -

Num 15: 28And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

Wouldn't it be hard to nail down what you were making the sacrifice for if you had done it unintentionally? Perhaps they thought they had done something wrong and it was leaning forward intentional sin?

I know we sin unintentionally and intentionlly. Anyway, interested in your input.
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:26 am

your Torah class has highlighted an issue that is not often brought up in church as a whole, as we like to think of our God as being extremely merciful (and He is).

But it is true, the Tanakh teaching in general is that intentional sins are not covered by sacrifice as His people were to be a holy people, set apart for Him to show his kingdom to the world around them.

The 'ekklesia' or chuch is also to be in a position whereby it presents itself as pure.

God is coming back to a church or congregation of people to 'marry them' and they will be a pure bride. So where am I going.

The book of Hebrews says For if we choose to go on sinning after we have received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but only a terrifying prospect of judgment and a raging fire that will consume the enemies of Godd 28Anyone who violates the law of Moses dies without mercy “on the testimony of two or three witnesses.” 29How much more severe a punishment do you think that person deserves who tramples on God's Son, treats as common the blood of the covenant by which itf was sanctified, and insults the Spirit of grace?

Paul also in Romans makes it clear that followers of the Messiah should want to live sin free lives. Which is a good thing to aim at. Johnin his epsitles says that anyone who says he is without sin decieves himself and the truth is not in him.

Both Paul and John I believe are talking about unintentional sin. Sure everyone deliberately sins, but unless there is true repentance and a real desire not to repeat those sins, there can be no forgiveness for them.

Steve

p.s. anyone care to contribute more
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:02 am

In th month of Elul, which we are currently in at the moment, Jewish people have to repent of their sins and make restitution to the people they sinned against. Maybe thats how the intentional sin is dealt with!?

Catrin xx
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:39 pm

Hi Catrin - nice to meet you.

Thanks you guys for the posts.
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:01 pm

Cyberlizard, I really liked t/ way you said this:
"Sure everyone deliberately sins, but unless there is true repentance and a real desire not to repeat those sins, there can be no forgiveness for them."

It makes sense. While in my addiction, I deliberately, "unwantingly", regretfully committed t/ things I didn't want to do. I wanted deliverance, I wanted to be able to control myself but that never happend until this year, back in Febuary, our Lord delivered me from it completely. Praise Him! AND NOW I AM TRULY FORGIVEN! Glory to God!
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 pm

Quote :
The 'ekklesia' or chuch is also to be in a position whereby it presents itself as pure.

How do you look at what Paul said in 2 Cor 11? That he would present the church as a chaste virgin to Messiah?
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cyberlizard
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:13 am

we see Paul wanting to present this church to Jesus as a bride, by staying away from anything from may detract from the groom.

In the general though, the quote above, was to point out that the 'church' who will be the bride will be devoted in both mind and action to the person they will marry. They will not want to play the field (so to speak) before the marriage ceremony. She will want to stay pure. How that is outworked I am not entirely certain.

Steve

p.s. but these are the ramblings of a british person
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:55 pm

( well my grandfather was from England so I understand a bit Laughing) Brings to mind the parable about the bridesmaids, they were all to be at the wedding, but some weren't ready, I think they will be the ones tried in the coming tribulation, not floating off in clouds to heaven like many falsely teach .

You are right, only those looking for him, shall see him then.
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:32 am

My own understanding of what I read in the laws which God provided through Moses is that the natural children of Israel would be, at the very least, cut off from God's people and, at the very worst, stoned to death for intentional sins. The question of whether a sin is intentional or not is why when it comes right down to it only God is able to make such a judgment correctly in every case about any person. Did the natural children of Israel ever make a mistake and stone someone to death who did not intentionally sin? Very probably they did, since they certainly tried to stone to death Jesus who was without sin of any kind. But then...what happened in the following case?

"They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:4-11

The law was clear [Lev 20:10] but it is also clear that Jesus, acting on behalf of His Father, was either merciful

1)because He saw that the woman's heart was not intentionally opposed to God's will, or

2)because God can be merciful even to a person who willfully and intentionally sinned.

Probably the first is the case. We know that God does not change and that His Word alwlays accomplishes His purpose. Jesus always did His Father's will and therefore it was His Father's will to spare the life of that woman caught in adultery. In some manner that the Father was able to see, the woman's sin was not intentional.
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:59 pm

tturt wrote:
I've been reading some materials from a Torah class and the author said that the sacrifices were for unintentional sins. I was really puzzled by that but I have found a scripture that supports his materials -

Num 15: 28And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

Wouldn't it be hard to nail down what you were making the sacrifice for if you had done it unintentionally? Perhaps they thought they had done something wrong and it was leaning forward intentional sin?

I know we sin unintentionally and intentionlly. Anyway, interested in your input.
I see this as when they realized they sinned by not following any of the commandments, there was an sacrifice for that , once they realized and the passage does include speaking of the whole nation.

I look at it as speaking of Israel, who as a nation right now is not aware that they are not following the commandment given here Deut. 18:15- 19. Of course the non observant ones don't care but the ones who follow Torah strictly don't know that they aren't keeping this commandment.


Quote :
The L-RD thy G-d will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the L-RD thy G-d in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the L-RD my G-d, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the L-RD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Quote :
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him
.

It is good to know this for those who love the Jews.
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Psalms_119:105
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:13 pm

Amadeus wrote:
My own understanding of what I read in the laws which God provided through Moses is that the natural children of Israel would be, at the very least, cut off from God's people and, at the very worst, stoned to death for intentional sins. The question of whether a sin is intentional or not is why when it comes right down to it only God is able to make such a judgment correctly in every case about any person. Did the natural children of Israel ever make a mistake and stone someone to death who did not intentionally sin? Very probably they did, since they certainly tried to stone to death Jesus who was without sin of any kind.
I don't think it's about intentional as much as ignorance. You could say that most Jews are in ignorance now in regards to who Yeshua/Jesus is, as I wrote in the above post. This is because for the sake of gentiles, they were given a blindness in part till the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. Their ignorance is not their fault as only HaShem reveals to each one as He wills.

Amadeus wrote:
But then...what happened in the following case?

"They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:4-11

The law was clear [Lev 20:10] but it is also clear that Jesus, acting on behalf of His Father, was either merciful

1)because He saw that the woman's heart was not intentionally opposed to God's will, or

2)because God can be merciful even to a person who willfully and intentionally sinned.

Probably the first is the case. We know that God does not change and that His Word always accomplishes His purpose. Jesus always did His Father's will and therefore it was His Father's will to spare the life of that woman caught in adultery. In some manner that the Father was able to see, the woman's sin was not intentional.
Actually it's neither. The Law of adultery is that both man and woman are stoned. Secondly if she were married, her husband would have to be present to accuse her before the high Priest. Thirdly, what Yeshua said about 'he is is without sin' he was speaking to them about how they went about doing this. See in Jewish law you aren't to bring false witness against your brother which they were doing with this woman ( because where was the man?) , and also with Yeshua, because they were trying to trip him up. That was their sin, it had nothing to do with hers, she was in adultery, as Yeshua so plainly did agree when he told her to 'Go and sin no more;.

Also he could not stone her or allow her to be stoned because all the 'witness' left and it requires at least two to condemn someone, and there were none, but Yeshua who knew she was guilty, but he was only one , thus he did not condemn her, but told her to stop sinning.

Adultery is an intentional act, I don't care how you cut it. If she was not 'inclined' to have sex with someone besides her husband that would be rape and she would not be guilty. Adultery is a horrendous act, that is why Yeshua even said if you look upon a woman that is not your wife you have already committed adultery in your heart. It is the same crime and same punishment.

Why is it such a big deal with G-d about Adultery? Because the husband/wife relationship is what reveals the special kind of relationship we should have with Messiah, he our husband, we his bride. If we even look towards worshiping other gods, we commit adultery against him, and that is #2 on the top ten! Wink

Quote :
Lev 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

In John it says "in the very act." which means the man was there, or a man that was known by the Sanhedrin beguiled her, just to use against Yeshua, and this may be another of the sins He was referring to when he said, he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
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PostSubject: Re: unintentional and intentional sins   Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:05 am

I do not disagree with you. The woman had sinned, but how intentional it was depends on things that we do not know for certain.
Quote :
The law was clear [Lev 20:10] but it is also clear that Jesus, acting on behalf of His Father, was either merciful

1)because He saw that the woman's heart was not intentionally opposed to God's will, or

2)because God can be merciful even to a person who willfully and intentionally sinned.

Probably the first is the case. We know that God does not change and that His Word always accomplishes His purpose. Jesus always did His Father's will and therefore it was His Father's will to spare the life of that woman caught in adultery. In some manner that the Father was able to see, the woman's sin was not intentional.
Quote :
Actually it's neither. The Law of adultery is that both man and woman are stoned. Secondly if she were married, her husband would have to be present to accuse her before the high Priest. Thirdly, what Yeshua said about 'he is is without sin' he was speaking to them about how they went about doing this. See in Jewish law you aren't to bring false witness against your brother which they were doing with this woman ( because where was the man?) , and also with Yeshua, because they were trying to trip him up. That was their sin, it had nothing to do with hers, she was in adultery, as Yeshua so plainly did agree when he told her to 'Go and sin no more;.

Also he could not stone her or allow her to be stoned because all the 'witness' left and it requires at least two to condemn someone, and there were none, but Yeshua who knew she was guilty, but he was only one , thus he did not condemn her, but told her to stop sinning.

Adultery is an intentional act, I don't care how you cut it. If she was not 'inclined' to have sex with someone besides her husband that would be rape and she would not be guilty. Adultery is a horrendous act, that is why Yeshua even said if you look upon a woman that is not your wife you have already committed adultery in your heart. It is the same crime and same punishment.
Yes, adultery is an intentional act, but how severe it is does relate directly to what the person who is committing the act knows about God's thoughts on the subject. Many people today commit adultery, but those who are not serving God at all and know little about His law will not be held to the same scrutiny as a person who fully understands these things of God:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Can we really assume that because she is apparently a woman subject to God's law that she was fully aware of the possible consequences of her act? Perhaps she was, but without knowing more of her background, it remains no more than a educated guess on our part. I will grant that if two or more witnesses stood against her on this they would still have been justified in stoning her to death. That is the hard and fast letter of the law. Being justified by the law doesn't mean they knew what was in her mind and in her heart in the way of knowledge of God's provision in this case. God certainly did know and Jesus very likely had God's knowledge on this as well, but who else did?

My point is that sometimes men make mistakes even though they try to follow the letter of the law. Remember that they tried to stone Jesus and did final condemn Him, even though He was always without sin. Only God knows a person's heart and that is why final judgment is His, not ours.

God gave man the power of life and death by means of the law, but did man always obtain to correct result? Can we presume that it never happened that two men conspired against another person and falsely witnessed against that person to obtain a death sentence?

Remember the action of Jezebel in obtaining two to witness against Naboth to have him condemned so that Ahab could have his vineyard. [I Kings 21]
Quote :
Why is it such a big deal with G-d about Adultery? Because the husband/wife relationship is what reveals the special kind of relationship we should have with Messiah, he our husband, we his bride. If we even look towards worshiping other gods, we commit adultery against him, and that is #2 on the top ten! Wink

Lev 20:10
"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

In John it says "in the very act." which means the man was there, or a man that was known by the Sanhedrin beguiled her, just to use against Yeshua, and this may be another of the sins He was referring to when he said, he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
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PostSubject: Good Post!   Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:22 pm

I understand what you are saying Amedeus, but also recognize the Christian perspective from which your understanding comes from, a teaching of Grace above all. But Yeshua did not teach this, he was full of grace and truth and the truth of this matter is that it was bogus, it was a set up, and he called them at their own game, their own deception.

To say that she didn't understand that adultery was wrong is to say this woman who apparently lived in Jerusalem was raised by heathen Jewish parents? who never obeyed the Shema, never taught her the 10 commandments? or she never heard them from anyone else, let alone, never went to synagogue or the temple? I can't buy that.

Yeshua said, in Matt 5:27 You have heard that it was said by them of old time ( Moshe) "Thou shalt not commit Adultery."

In Mark he tells the rich man who came to him, you know the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill , do not steal, do not bear false witness, defraud not, honor your father and mother

See the first he mentioned? why mention this first? this is not the first commandment.

It says that they brought her to him, tempting him that they might accuse him, but accuse him of what? not upholding the law of Moses. If he had condemned her without the man he would be wrong, and they would have him, instead, and he knew if she was or not, ( because he told her to go and sin no more) he turned it around on them and taught them about mercy and righteousness.

He did not overstep the law, nor do anything against what it says. Both were equally as guilty, and they said they caught her in the very act, which means they walked in on them , yet them only brought the woman before him, that was their sin, even if they had no other, that was their sin.
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